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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Fri, March 12, 2004 - 5:26 PMI agree that Allen is a very attractive suspect, but how do you answer the DNA tests they ran? I don't think Allen was smart and paranoid enough to have people lick stamps for him. Who could have predicted DNA BACK THEN? Besides, who would lick someone ELSE'S stamps? :-) Seriously, what are you theories on the DNA? -
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 12:50 PMWell I heard that Allens used to have people lick stamps for him but don't know if that's actually true. Allens had same navy experiance as well as his father they could have known it would be the future of forensics. Can't really say for sure, but they have so much on him it would just be way too much of a coincidence IMHO. -
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 12:51 PMWelcome to the Zodiac Killer tribe Eric. 8)
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 12:55 PMYeah, he is a pretty good fit in all the other areas. The guy was just creepy and a child molester to boot. It's the getting other people to lick your stamps and envelopes that gets me, at least right now. I can't think of anyone who'd be willing to do that for me. Could you refresh my memory, what did Allen do in the Navy?
All that said, it is very interesting to try to figure it out. I'm enjoying the conversation, hope you are. -
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 1:01 PMGlad you are enjoying it, I am too. I've heard it said that whomever figures out this case will be the best homicide detective ever. 8*)
Allen was in the Navy for only a year I think but his dad was in it for a very long time with all kinds of medals and whatnot. i'm not sure what Allen's did in the Navy, I need to go re-read everything on him again, I'm getting rusty. lol. i do remember that detectives figure the Zodiac must of had some navy experiance though. -
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Wing Walker Shoes
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 2:41 PMYeah, one of the reasons they thought the killer might have military connections because of the shoe print they found at one crime scene. The "Wing Walker" brand, if I recall correctly. -
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Re: Wing Walker Shoes
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 3:49 PMCan't remember what brand of shoe eigther but they found a pair at Allen's house size 10 1/2 I think it was. Rare boots also.
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Licking stamps
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 1:39 PMFound where I got that from.... www.zodiackiller.com/Cheney.html
This is an interview with Arthur's friend. -
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Re: Licking stamps
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 1:52 PMDetectives should ask Don Cheney if he remembers anyone in particular Arthur had lick stamps and do a D.N.A. on them to see if they match. -
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Re: Licking stamps
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 6:28 PMWith regards to the stamps issue, I may have a solution, but it is currently a theory. Please excuse, if it is not accurate.
The stamps being licked by other people may have been a part of a larger, more sinister dominance game; to reduce someone to the level of an object is most of the drive and intent of a serial killer -- to take the person from a human to an event, emotional context or simply an experience.
Perhaps the stamps were licked by the victims, in some cases.
He'd have them at his 'mercy', so to speak, for a few moments, but he'd have the option to do what he wishes with them. Plus, if he were leaving the scenes, and was noticed dropping off mail in public areas nearby, no one would be the wiser.
What suspicious behavior begins with dropping a letter into a mailbox? Hardly something potential eyewitnesses would find out of the ordinary. It would add to the camouflage, and enhance the experience; sort of like dropping the last victim's last drop of saliva into the world.
Just my thoughts. -
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Re: Licking stamps
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 4:56 AMAn interesting thought, and one I must admit I hadn't considered. Hmmn. That WOULD play into the whole mind-games, domination aspect of serial killer behavior. The only problem I can see is that Zodiac sometimes struck very, very quickly. In the cases where he shot the people in Lovers' Lanes, he would just walk up and start shooting. Then again at Lake Beryessa, he took his time and seemed to be following some sort of script in his head, probably fulfilling a fantasy he'd built up. That is a very interesting wrinkle and one I'll have to give some thought. Thanks! -
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Unsu...
Re: Licking stamps
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 11:23 AMIt is an interesting theory but as I understand it the letters kept coming for years after the Zodiac had stopped claiming victims, though that's debatable too. I can see him having one victim lick an envelope but it does seem like a stretch that it would be part of a continuing MO. As Eric points out, his MO changed too. The first killings were more akin to the Son of Sam -- quick shootings at lovers' lane. Then, getting more confident, he adopts the hood and stabs his next victim(s) to death and then he shoots a cab driver in San Francisco whereas most of his earlier victims were young couples -- is that right? Shooting people at lovers' lane to me implies a certain jealousy at the sexual normality the ZK himself lacked but the cab driver's death has none of that. I think this is another reason this case continues to haunt -- the killer's evolving identity. Usually, serial killers are much more consistent, both victim- and style-wise. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Changing M.O.
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 1:00 PMThat's true that Zodiac's M.O. changed over the course of his known killings. I can only think of one other serial killer who did that, Peter Kurten, the Dusseldorf Vampire. There's a real creepy case if you're not familiar with it. Kurten purposely altered his M.O. to throw off the police.
Anyway, back to the Zodiac. In the first killing, in the Riverside City College parking lot, he stabbed the woman. Then he began shooting couples in Lovers' Lanes. Next was the infamous "hood" attacks at Lake Beryessa. Then he shot the cabbie in San Francisco.
In his book "The Cases That Haunt Us" (a pretty good read, BTW), John Douglas puts for the theory that Zodiac is that rarest of all serial killers: one with enough self-control to stop. Douglas thinks that Zodiac was so scared by almost getting caught as he walked away from the crime scene that he stopped. Graysmith thinks he waited a while, then started killing hitch-hikers and stuck with that for a while. I don't know. No other serial killer that we know of was able to stop. They either keep going until their caught or they die. It also seems like a lot of them get more and more out of control until they get sloppy, which leads to their getting caught. Zodiac didn't do that, at least not that we're aware of. -
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Unsu...
Re: Changing M.O.
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 3:21 PMWell, Eric, what you say is especially relevent considering the ZK's arrogance. He clearly enjoyed thinking he was smarter than everyone else and it seems likely he would've wanted to keep on killing in order to continue proving it. However, the Jack the Ripper killings, which were clearly the work of a sexual psychopath, came to an abrupt halt too. It isn't at all clear this was true of the ZK, though it does seem likely he was sexually abberant in some way. That's certainly been true of most serial killers and part of what makes them so compulsive. In many cases, killing IS sex to them or, anyway, so wound together that one basically amounts to the other.
If that was really the ZK who called that TV station, by the way, doesn't it seem likely someone would've recognized the voice? But maybe not. He was probably a loner and may have gone for days and even weeks without exchanging more than a few words. -
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Re: Changing M.O.
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 3:45 PMSexually abberant serial killers tend to be self-destroying types; flare into bright and terrifying flashes and die off just as quickly.
The ZK might be adaptable, and his M.O. would be as easily altered as his victimology. If this is the case, he's anywhere and less than nowhere, for the time being. -
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Re: Changing M.O.
Tue, March 16, 2004 - 3:54 AMI'm afraid you might be right. Zodiac could be anywhere laughing at all the people trying to figure out who he is, especially if the DNA test that exonerated Allen is correct. Then again, they caught Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, and many thought that case wouldn't be solved.
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Re: Changing M.O.
Tue, March 16, 2004 - 3:52 AMYeah, Zodiac was arrogant to the extreme. I once heard someone say he had some "liquid courage" before calling the police but I can't believe it. He seemed like someone who was ALWAYS in control. As far as JtR goes, there's a school of thought that the killings stopped after M.J. Kelly because the police had a suspect who was placed in a mental hospital. His name was Kosminski. Other people think JtR was a man named Montague Druitt who committed suicide after Kelly died. Graysmith writes in his books that Zodiac changed his M.O. so much that no one would think it was him. -
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Unsu...
Re: Changing M.O.
Tue, March 16, 2004 - 3:56 AMBut he was always right there to claim responsibility. I think it's likely his MO changed either because he was trying to prove his diversity and the idea that no one was safe at any time or because his own idea of who he was was constantly evolving. -
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Re: Changing M.O.
Tue, March 16, 2004 - 7:10 AMIt's true that Zodiac was alway quite keen to take responsibility, i.e. writing details of past crimes on the door of a car at a crime scene, calling the police, sending letters including the coded ones. If he did change his M.O. though, I can't see his ego allowing him to not tell the authorities about his crimes. I just don't think he could have slipped into relative anonymity and obscurity. I think he HAD to keep proving to them and himself that he was smarter than they were. -
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Re: Changing M.O.
Tue, March 16, 2004 - 2:56 PMYeah I remember him writting and saying a cop asked him if he saw anyone suspicious after one of the killing's I think it was right after the cab drivers death (Paul I think?). Also he said he was in the bushes watching the cops reving their engines trying to be macho another time, when they couldv'e found him if they weren't so busy doing that. i feel bad for the cops in this case. Wouldn't it suck to have to live with that?
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Fri, February 8, 2008 - 3:02 AMi think zodiac would have been smart enough to use a sponge or something to wet the stamps, hence no dna.
I'm sceptical that a dna test would work on a stamp licked 30 years ago anyway, what would be left?
Anyone know of dna correctly identified on 30 year old envelopes?
One challenging aspect is the wanted posters, one looks like ala
but the other doesn't.
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Unsu...
Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 8:36 PMI don't disagree - not completely with the A.L. Allen choice but I do believe that the Zodiac Killer is one and the same with the original Night Stalker. Too many things are similiar between the cases, and the Night Stalker picked up where the Zodiac Killer left off...doing almost the same thing EXCEPT he went into the homes of couples, killing mainly the women. I think he upped the ante and they couldn't connect the two. Also, both stopped abruptly with no trace and both contacted newspapers (the NightStalker also contacted the living victims, tormenting them)...neither is solved.
Miche
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Re: Who do you think the Zodiac is?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 3:30 PMI believe The Zodiac is a yet unamed suspect. ALA had alot of circumstantial evidence against him. After watching the Scott Peterson trial though, these days ALA would have been convicted. Even though I believe SP killed his wife, all they had against him was a mountain of circumstantial evidence. Like the one commentator said (this is not an exact quote), After so much circumstantial evidence is found then you have to believe the person is guilty.
There were 2,500 suspects in The Zodiac case. Could he have been smart enough to slip through? Was he one of those interviewed by the police? We may never know without a deathbed confession or a chess in someones attic that just happens to contain a bloody knife and an odd shaped mask.
